In this powerful and deeply personal episode, Lori Jacobs, president of California Houndsmen for Conservation, joins the podcast to talk about two critical wildlife bills impacting predator management in California. She shares the tragic story behind Taylor & Wyatt’s Law, details the political challenges facing non-lethal cougar hazing efforts, and dives into Assembly Bill 1038, which proposes the return of bear pursuit with hounds. Lori offers a passionate, behind-the-scenes look at how advocacy, science, and heartfelt persistence are shaping the future of wildlife management—and why it all matters. Whether you're a conservationist, houndsman, or just someone who cares about ethical wildlife policy, this is a must-listen conversation.
00:00 – 01:00 | 🎧 Intro & Sponsor Shoutout
– Alpha Dog Nutrition promo
– Podcast setup chaos and technical difficulties
01:01 – 07:00 | 🐾 Mountain Lion Hazing: SB 818 Explained
– What the bill would have allowed in El Dorado County
– Use of hounds for non-lethal cougar hazing
– How "adverse conditioning" works in practice
07:01 – 13:00 | 🧑⚖️ Taylor & Wyatt’s Law and a Political Gutting
– Tragic story of Taylor and Wyatt
– Committee overrides bill author and guts the legislation
– Replacement language adds ineffective, pre-existing measures
13:01 – 17:00 | 💥 Broken Politics and Losing Trust
– Disappointment from the family and advocates
– Mounting frustration with lawmakers and advocacy groups
– Calls for more honest collaboration
17:01 – 24:00 | 🦁 What Works, What Doesn’t, and the Need for Dialogue
– Friction with the Mountain Lion Foundation
– Personal experiences of mountain lion threats in rural communities
– The idea of "Hound Day" at the Capitol to educate legislators
24:01 – 31:00 | 🧠 Changing Minds with Dogs & Science
– Stories of skeptics converted after seeing hounds in action
– The need to bridge emotional and political gaps with firsthand experiences
31:01 – 40:00 | 🐻 Assembly Bill 1038 – Bear Hazing & Public Safety
– Pursuit-only vs. take provisions
– Bear population explosion and increased conflicts
– Opposition to including a harvest clause
40:01 – 48:00 | 🗳️ Legislative Challenges & Political Strategy
– Committee vote breakdown
– The bill fails narrowly, but is granted reconsideration
– Strategy for 2025 and potential amendments
48:01 – 55:00 | 🔁 Why Keep the Bear and Cougar Bills Separate
– The importance of not combining efforts legislatively
– Discussing cross-house strategies to gain traction
55:01 – 1:02:00 | ❤️ Personal Reflections & Advocacy Fatigue
– Lori’s 40 years with hounds
– Her role as president of CHC since 2013
– A call for younger leadership in the hound community
1:02:01 – End | 📅 What’s Next & Hope for the Future
– CHC banquet and continued lobbying
– The changing political landscape and reasons for hope
– Final thoughts and encouragement to stay engaged
Learn more about California Houndsmen for Conservation (CHC)
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Hey guys, before we start, a quick shout out to Alpha Dog Nutrition for sponsoring this podcast. Alpha Dog products are now available at deusupply.com and you can use code alphadog15 at checkout for 15% off and a credit for free shipping to try it yourself. Now let's get you to your podcast.
We're recording, I don't know if this is like two, three, four, I don't know. We've had so many technical problems. And we started recording, we got about four minutes.
Luckily, we didn't get like 45 minutes in. Right. So we got four minutes in and the SD card filled up.
I'm huffing and puffing because I'm out of shape. I had to run all the back to my desk. Lori, we're going to start over.
We're going to pretend like we didn't just mess up. We were talking about two bills. And I catch my breath or something.
You can be reading the podcast. I'm going to annoy people right now. First I'm chasing dogs.
Yeah, I need to get, I need to get in shape. I'm going to pick on my dogs, but you're not a shape. But we were talking about two bills you guys just kind of had in California.
One of them was the mountain lion bill. And we started going a little details on that. And the other one was a bear bill.
So let's take it back from the top. Explain that mountain lion bill and the brothers and just. What you just told me so we can catch up with the new.
Okay. So Senate bill 818. Was a five year.
Pilot bill in El Dorado County alone. And it would have allowed pounds. To pursue or haze mountain lions in El Dorado County alone.
For a person conditioning, as you say. Yeah. Which already is being used in other states.
And you know, works yourself. Yeah. Like, um, some people are spinning it a little bit.
You know, like, like it does it. We don't know that it moves cougars away from like. Areas.
You know what I mean? Like a, you know, like I wouldn't say, but what we do know is that. When you. Capture.
You know, tree cougars capture them. And I. Here's what I would explain to this. Like if I was explaining to the layman's term, but we didn't have any ideas.
Okay. You, you capture the cougar. You get to the tree.
You have this speaker, you know, or whatever human voices. You know, maybe you call it a nasty name or something, whatever. You just, you, you locate that cougar and you say, Hey, you bad cougar.
You bad cougar or whatever. The human that cougar is associating the dogs to capture the humans with that voice. And so the next time it hears the human voice, it says, Oh, I, I don't like that.
That sound because there could be dogs that come and capture me and treat me. And then, and then I get treated and this human walks up and calls me dirty names. And I don't like getting called dirty names.
And so the next time it hears human voices, it slips away before it didn't. Yeah. In a nutshell, that's what it is is we would get, we would play this sound as we walk towards the cougar and it would not move away.
It would stay there. It would hold its position until you got really close to it. And, and then even then it would maybe slink away.
Maybe it, you know, it, you didn't know what it was going to do. But a lot of times it didn't do hardly anything. And when it did move away, it wasn't necessarily getting away from you.
It was just kind of like, Hey, I don't, I, I didn't know what to do. And so you'd bring the dogs in, you'd, you'd treat it moment pretty quick. And, you know, he did some different methods of hazing, you know, to see what, you know, at first it was a little more aggressive.
And I think by the end, it wasn't, it wasn't so aggressive that it was mostly like, Hey, you just captured the cat. And, you know, leash up the dogs and leave. And so that you do that four times by the fourth time, as soon as that cougar heard voices, it was mobilizing away from the voices.
You know what I mean? It was so, so anyways, that's what we do know is that if you catch some release, at least on a consistent basis, the cougar hears the human voice and says, Nope, I'm not out of here. I don't like this. I want to leave.
I want to avoid human voices. And so I'm fairly confident to say that is effective that a healthy pursuit season. There's some potentially beneficial public safety things that we could see from that.
So that's my kind of little spiel on bringing the study in what we do know. I think we need more studies on it. I think we need to look at more depth.
So, you know, my question is, um, if, if, uh, if just a pursuit season, you know what I mean? Like, if you just catch and release a healthy pursuit season, do those cool? Well, that's exactly, you know, this was supposed to be a five year study. Yeah. A study to see if it worked.
Mm hmm. And we were wanting to kill them. We're just wanting to pursue them and see if it worked.
Yeah. If it did work, then it could branch out to other counties in the state that wanted to try it. Follow the data.
Yeah. Because we have such a problem in the state of California. Yeah, exactly.
And, but El Dorado County being the worst. So their rise with the death of the young man. And then the rise of their livestock.
You talk about the brothers, right? The two brothers. Yeah. Tailing and Wyatt.
And tailing is the one that was killed. Wyatt was mauled. Right.
And their livestock. I mean, it's just went through the roof. And, you know, the other side, the advocates try to tell you, I'll get dog, do this, do that.
These lions are jumping fences in yards and jumping out with 75 pound German shepherds. Yeah. Which are supposed to be a dog to scare them off.
Like, so these, I mean, cougars are really impressive. Like when you go to a, a depredation call, like it is impressive. The, the fences that cougars can manipulate carrying stuff in their mouths.
You know, I mean, like watching, like there's such magnificent creatures, but it's when you look at this hundred pound cat and you watch what it does. And I've, I've dragged a couple deer out and I'll go, I know. It's tough.
You know what I mean? Hanging that stuff over fences and stuff. Man. I mean.
And they do it with ease. Yeah. Exactly.
If you watch a video of them getting one hung up in a fence line or whatever and just watch them what they do. It's, it's truly impressive what they do. Yeah.
And, but anyway, so, and we, you know, we tried to say that. You know, we love these animals just as much as anyone. We don't want them killed either.
Right. That's why we want to do this. We want to manage, right? Yeah.
We do want them. They do need to be managed, but right now we just want to try to keep them from getting more humans. Yeah.
Getting these people's livestock and getting killed because they ultimately pay. You know, what happens when they do do this? They're going to get killed unnecessarily. So.
Yeah. But when the bill went through, when the bill was heard last week, they had came forward before the bill was ever presented with amendments. And the author, Senator Alvarado Gail, she had told them now.
We don't want those amendments. So they were wanting to take the amendments out. So what? So what amendments? So he's in the.
They wanted to get it and take the hands out. And that's the main factor of this bill. That's what's going to work.
Right. So. And who was they? The day.
The. The committee. The committee.
So when the bill was heard that day. They proposed their amendments again. Yeah.
And the family, the lobbyists and which is Bill Gaines of games and associate are lobbyists also. He. They were like, no, we're not going to accept the amendments.
That you want. You know, we want it to go through as is. Yeah.
So they didn't have a quorum. On the floor. So.
They said that they would have to go. They'd have to go on call. And come back for a vote.
And we figured that when it went back up for the vote later that day, that it would go out on a party line vote of. There was only seven members of the committee. And it would probably die with a five to two vote because there was only two Republicans.
Wow. That night. Like I'm not committing five.
So it's a five to Republican split on a committee. Yeah. Two Republicans, five Democrats.
And so. Later that night, I spoke with Bill and he's like, you're not going to believe this. They went ahead and.
It's called hostile amendments. And they completely gutted the bill. Put their amendments in and pushed it through anyway.
How can they do that? Yeah. When the author of the bill said no. I don't get that part of politics.
I don't get a lot about politics. It's so corrupt. But.
So the only part that is left on that bill that was original was the author's name. Alvarado, Senator Alvarado. And then it was called.
Why are tailing and why it's law. So the boys name was still on it. Then underneath, they removed everything and put in their own language, which is stuff that already exists.
Like what? As strobe lights, electric fencing. Guardian dogs. But they wanted to make it.
More money to the department. To do these things and to study these things to see if these things were more effective. Yeah.
Yeah. And with the family there, one of the lead people on the lead testimony was the boy's uncle, Malcolm Brooks. Right.
Why it was right there sitting in the front row as a huge scar down the side of his face. These people had the audacity to do that to this family. Yeah.
They don't care. Are you going to be able to sit? Are they with those members in the committee take a meeting with you guys? What was that? Will they meet with you guys? well, there's time meeting with them and they will not even know what how it is is how it is. Yeah.
So you're saying the commission or the committee members? No, nobody will sit down and talk to you guys. Oh, they've talked to them, but they are not willing to work and, you know, take their amendments out and go back to the original way it was. So I believe what is going to happen is that the author is going to take her name off the bill and the boy's name off the bill.
The family doesn't want no part of it anymore. Yeah. So, and then they'll just go through.
What they're trying to do is look like heroes. Yeah, they're trying to. They admitted that there's a problem in California with blanks.
They admitted that. What's what? There's a problem in California with mountain lions. They admitted that that day.
And then they went and did this though. So. You know what groups are dealing with on what groups are behind that.
The mountain lion foundation. As the was the main one there that was fighting it that day. And then you have the human society, which is not hardly anything anymore.
You have a bunch of other little. And a lot of those groups that were there, but I mean. Well, one of you guys could, while you're waiting, like.
If they could give you. So a lot of times. I mean, those.
Cutting a bill is nothing new, right? Like, like we've done that before on our side where. Whether it's a tethering bill or. You don't mean like different.
Different bills that. I know have been launched in Washington. Yeah.
Animal care act or whatever where you, you go down, you sit down with a group and they, they form a. A working group or whatever. And. You have these different stakeholders sitting at the meeting and, and you come up, you come in with, okay, well, we want to work together to get this bill passed.
And so. You know, getting the mountain lion foundation. To sit down in a room with you guys with.
Well, it was actually, it was actually the Senate natural resource committee. That was, that did it. That did what? They put the amendments in the bill.
Oh, yeah. Yeah. But, but I'm sure.
I'm sure that that came. Yeah, I'm sure that came from. So figuring out which committee member.
Or, or, or those Democrats that are willing to at least listen and go, Hey, we want. Like you have to let's just say, okay, we understand we got to work with the mountain lion foundation. Right.
If, if they have that much political capital. That they can get the bill. The answer is, is you need, we need to sit down with mountain lion foundation and go, okay.
What is it that you, what's, what's more important to you? Is it more important to save cougars than it is to kill cougars? You know what I mean? Like we're getting you down to the line of, okay, well, either we need to kill cougars, or maybe we can do it without killing cougars and save humans. And if we can find a way that does this effectively and the cougar conflict goes down, cougar mortality goes down, you know what I mean? You get everything you want with no side effects. I mean, there's no, the hounds are not going to kill the cougar.
Like we, we, we, it's a non lethal, you know, pursuit. So a lot of times when you're sitting in a room and talking to them face to face. It's really hard for them to be hard line party.
Nope. You know what I mean? Like outside of the room, when, when, when, when we send an email and they're sending emails and everything's just political push, it's easy to be hard line. This is, this is the party line vote.
The answer is no, you know, but when you're sitting in that room and you're trying to collaborate and trying to do good work, sometimes that's where, just, I mean, that's where the sausage gets made. I can promise you we've tried. And I mean, we talked to these people till we're blue in the face about it.
And that by doing this, that less lions are going to be killed. Yeah. Because they're going to get in less trouble.
Right. And it is their working group with the, with the, I really, I honestly, I honestly don't think they care about animals like they say they care about the animals. Yeah.
I really don't. No, I, I would agree with you on that. It is, it is difficult.
It is a difficult. And I know it's most states, but especially in California, if it has hounds in it or hounds in it, they're going to fight it to them now. So, and if it means saving animals, they don't care.
Yeah. They do not care. They're going to see animals die.
Then to allow us to help. Yeah, I think. Oh, I think.
So here's, here's what I think. I think the title, the weight, the, the political pendant, peninsula, whatever, is moving. You know what I mean? Like, I think it's been a pretty rough, you know, we've been on the wrong side for a little while, especially on the West Coast, California, Oregon, Washington.
Yeah. I mean, like we've always been in our attack. And I think going to that New Mexico lion association workshop, whatever.
The mountain lion workshop. I think we're getting traction, not enough traction, obviously. You don't have enough talking in California right now.
But the fact that these things are getting discussed, I think is a good sign. You know what I mean? I think the traction is getting there. It's not enough.
Like we need more and we need to sharpen our tools, you know, and our language. And because the fact that they still want to pass a gutted bill tells me that they know there's a problem. You know what I mean? Like you said that there's a problem.
And so now they're trying, and Washington does this too. You know, like every, like, they try and, you know, I think in Washington years ago, they did a cou, two cougar, you know, oh, we'll give two cougar tags. You know, it's like, that's not going to make it, you know, boot hunters.
I'm like, that's not going to move the needle. Like, but they come up with these other solutions that they know won't do anything simply for the fact to say they did something. You know what I mean? Like, oh, yeah.
Well, we, we, we passed this bill and we need to wait and see if this bill will change if we use air horns or strobe lights or whatever that is for these cougars. Yeah. And then they... That stuff's already being used to.
Yeah. Yeah. So they're using it as a game.
They're using it as a delay tactic, you know. And the director of Fish and Wildlife went to a board of supervisors meeting in El Dorado County and was on film stating that he was not against hazing mountain lions with hounds. Right.
And thought it would help. Yeah. And then did this anyway.
How was that bill passed? Was it, uh, like in California, the history is it was it voted? How did they take land away from that? Lion hunting. Yeah. It was about initiative.
Yeah. And so, but in a prop 17, it can, there's a part in the state that this can be allowed. The hazing and stuff can be brought back through with a fourth.
It has to be a fourth. It's about. Right.
Of the house. So, which is hard, but doable. Yeah.
If you have common sense. Oh, yeah. Which is very lacking.
Down there at our Capitol. Oh, yeah. In California.
No. And it was proven last week. Yeah.
So does that bill just going to like die now that it's got no meat on the bone? Is what essentially is probably going to happen? Huh? I didn't catch that. Do you think I'm guessing that bill is just going to die with no meat on the bone? That's what's going to happen. They started out.
No, it's going to go through with their amendments. No, I'm sure it will pass with flying colors with their amendments. But it's what it's going to be.
It's just going to cause. Oh, yeah. Because they're pushing it now.
The Democrats are pushing it. Why wouldn't it pass? Yeah. It's going to have nothing to do with hounds.
It's going to make them look like the heroes that make them look like they're doing something from mountain lions in the state. Yeah. Why wouldn't it pass? You know, and it's going to cost the state money.
To run it. It's just for that county. Yeah.
Yeah. And it's going to do absolutely no good because what they're pushing through. It's already being done.
And the legislators. It's going to cost money. I'm guessing the legislator that sponsored it was from that county.
Yeah. But she's coming off of it. So one of the other ones will have to pick it up or.
The Senate natural resource will. Sponsored or something. I don't know what will happen.
I don't know how all that works. My guess is it's going to die. I mean, maybe, maybe they.
Push it. You know, but a lot of times that like they're just no. I mean, maybe I don't know.
I guess I guess that's your point where they're trying to make it like they're the heroes and that would be. It passed through that committees unanimously after they amended it. Even the Republicans, huh? So it's on.
Well, I don't know. It didn't pass the Republicans didn't vote for us. It didn't pass unanimously.
I take that back. So, but it moved on to the next. Late.
Yeah. Whatever that is. And.
And it did it start in the Senate. So it has to go all through the house. Yeah, it's in the Senate.
So. I mean, we're running out of time on. How long does your session go? It's.
They just came back from recess. So they're starting back up. Yeah.
I'm not sure it'll end. Because their new session will start this fall. It'll be done by summer.
So they'll be done getting done pretty soon. Yeah. Yeah.
I'd be interested to see if it makes it through. Like I'm, if I had the gamble, my bet would be that it just dies. You have no meat on the bone.
They stripped it. They gutted it. And then it's going to lose steam.
It doesn't have anybody who's really pushing the support of it except for. We'll see. Animal rights.
I, I, if it stays like it is and they keep pushing it through, I bet it goes through and I bet. Our dumbass governor signs it. Yeah.
Huh. That's just my feeling. Yeah.
And it's going to do absolutely nothing. Have you had bills gutted like that before that, that went through? Well, our lobbyist bill gains. Yeah.
Said he's only seen in his career and he's been working there for a long time. Just a few, like a couple of hostile amendments like that. And do they generally pass? I didn't ask him that.
Yeah. Yeah, I would. It will be interesting to see, right? Because more for the lesson of are they that desperate? You know what I mean? If they're that desperate that they're going to take over a bill, gutted, put useless information in and then champion that bill.
That's pretty desperate. Like, in my opinion, you know what I mean? Like they're desperate or dumb. Yeah.
Like they, they, they're kind of opening themselves up to, to just show that they're going to lose more credibility. You know what I mean? Like if we can pin him down and be like, okay. I was just, I was so disgusted.
I just couldn't even believe it. And then I come home, you know, and my husband. He's like, so how does that make you feel about your bill next week? Yeah.
I can, you know, I really don't know. Yeah. Because, because we've been, you know, we've had like a 50-50 take on our bill.
Yeah. We've heard good things. We've had not heard good things.
We, you know, we've been lobbying the heck out of it. Yeah. Man.
What was the testimony? Like we'll change subject in a minute and talk with your bill. But what was the testimony like on that lion bill? Like what, what mountain lion foundation? What, what was it? There was way more in, in support of the bill. Yeah.
Then not. There was a handful of opposition there. Mostly groups, you know, mountain lion foundation.
Fairly. I'm sure it was there. Jennifer Fearing was there that used to work for humane society.
She now lobbies for herself. It's called fearless advocates. She was there.
I don't even know who else was there. There wasn't really anybody there. Yeah.
Yeah. And then the room was little. I didn't even get inside the room.
It was, it was full. So I was listening on my phone out in the hallway. Yeah.
You can hear it good. They didn't have TVs going. But, you know, it was just, it was, it was hard to watch.
I know that. Yeah. Very disappointed, very disappointed for the family.
Yeah. And like a slap in the face, actually. I would imagine so.
Man, that stinks. It's going to be, we're going to have to watch that and see. Like I said.
Yeah. The bad thing is that it's going to happen to more people. That's the same thing.
That's not going to be the first one. No. No, that's not going to be.
And it's going to happen more. So. And those, like I said, those people don't care.
Yeah. Yeah. They do not care.
Yeah. I don't know how we change that. I am.
And most of the people that got up to oppose it. We're from San Francisco, Sacramento. L.A. They don't even deal with this.
Yeah. You know, one lady came up trying to tell us. Because Kelly and I were there in my nephew and come up to say, Oh, we're so sorry.
You know, what happened was devastating. She was from the Mount Lion Foundation. And I said, please, you know, Paris.
And she's trying to say stuff. And I asked her, I said, how many lions have you seen out? Actually seen out in the wild. Oh, none.
Yeah. Yep. There you go.
I said, you people don't live this life. You don't live with these animals. These people live with these animals on a daily basis.
They have them in their yards. They have them on their porches. They have them trying to come through doggy doors.
Right. Packing their animals off. You know, can't even let their children play out in their yards.
Yeah. Yeah. And I, but the logical part of me, Lori, looks at it and goes, that argument isn't enough.
We've got to figure out how to connect with those people. Like, as much as it sucks, like, we've got to figure out how to change, or at least soften there. And I think, I think it's doable.
I think it's a really challenging thing to do. I think it's really difficult. We do have to educate them and we have to educate them.
Yeah. The best thing that could happen is if you could get a study and you could bring those people in. Like, I would, I don't know how much I'd bet on it, but that gal that said, I'm sorry, I would almost guarantee if they got part of a study in a cougar and they went and colored a lot of cougars and seen the work that the dogs do.
Now, are they going to want to shoot cougars? No, maybe not. But a lot of them, as they learn the science behind cougars and they learn more and more interaction with the cougars, and then they learn more and more interactions with our dogs, they, they have this preconceived notion of what our dogs are and that is so far from the truth that they can't get past that until they meet our dogs and go, man, that's our sweet dogs. You know what I mean? Those are our puppies.
Those are our dogs. And as they connect with the dogs, they learn that these dogs have a really cool job. I mean, number one, they just have a super cool job.
And number two, they're good at their job. You know what I mean? They love doing their job and, and they're effective at it. And it's safe for the cougar.
You know what I mean? That's, that's probably one of the, it's the only way to ethically professionally connected cougars with consistency. Because we came so close with this other bill and it's now on recon, you know, reconsideration. So we're going to bring it back.
Yeah. And so one of the things we're going to do, I've already talked to the author a bit about it, Heather Hadwick, we're going to have a hound day at a capital and get the members of the committee to meet these dogs. Yeah.
And, you know, like have a bunch of hounds there. Show them how they, show them how they might show them the GPS collars and handhelds and the landowner maps and that we, these dogs will not trespass like they say they work, are going to do. Right.
Because we're not going to allow it because these maps show us exactly where these dogs are going to go. Yeah. And we'll stop them.
You know, and then let's have these members come out and hands on with these dogs. I hope you guys can get the, the other side to come out and participate with that. Oh, they will.
She'll get them out there. Good. She's great.
And then I, but I also told, you know, Bill that they need to get the people that were on the lion bill to do this, come out and see them also. And see, this is not what you guys have been told that these animals are. These dogs are.
Yeah. They need to come see these dogs. And we also, we have offered to take these people out in the field.
Well, the chair that was on the bear bill actually has agreed to come out. Oh, awesome. And I'm like, how old are you? Yeah.
You know, there is so much work that happens at a tree. Like so much connection. If you can get people to the tree, especially, you know, a tree.
Exactly. They can see how happy those dogs are. Not even that.
But the emotional roller coaster, somebody goes through, I've had a couple of people that have gotten taken to a tree for the first time, right? Professionally, whatever it is. And that, there's just a, there's a bonding that happens that's really hard to explain. But getting that person to go through the process and one by one, their preconceived notions start disappearing.
You know what I mean? Like, you're in the beginning. It's always like, well, what are the dogs going to do? You know, like trying to align. It's like, oh, they're just going to start marketing and take on, you know, I was like, no, no, no.
They're probably going to chirp a little bit. They're going to whine a little bit. Their tails are going to wag.
You know what I mean? They're going to, they're going to spin up on this track. You know, he's like, what do you mean? I said, well, they don't just hit a track and just, wow, take off. You know what I mean? My dogs are going to, they're going to spin.
Their tails are going to wag. They're going to recheck things. They're going to check this bush.
And it's going to grow, you know, to where they start marking and they realize, yes, we have a cat here. So they start marking and start the track. And then they line it out and they get better.
And, you know, and then the, the, it grows and grows and grows until they get it jumped. And, and then they're going to give it a little bit of pressure and they're going to run and bark. And I said, that can't probably going to climb the tree before the dogs even see it.
You know what I mean? Like a lot of times those things climb when they just cannot escape the sound of the dogs. I don't think it's the dogs a lot of times, but, and, but, but through that process, those people go through where they come in, and then all anxious and nervous. Like, oh my gosh, I'm going to bear hunt and going, you know, cat, there's a dogs and what's going to happen.
And this, they don't know. I mean, they just have no clue about what they're going to experience. And so they're really anxious about it.
And then when it's done, you look over and they're just like, it's the best day of their life. I mean, that was all the cow. This was awesome.
You know what I mean? Like in, in this bond, this bond building happens right there through that. It's like you go through this little mini adverse conditioning situation. You know, I don't say war because it's not, you know what I mean? Like, I'm, I'm trying to think of a good example, but I would, brothers that go through, go fight a war together.
You know what I mean? They come back and I've never gone to the military. And so I'm, I'm completely talking out of context here. And so like full grain of thought, but, but that's the one thing that I missed in life is I never got enlisted because of personal choices.
And the one thing, you know, talking with my old man who's passed away or whatever, is that there is bonding that happens in that military that you're just going through stuff together. You know what I mean? Whether it's boot camp, whether it's going off to war or whatever, you're going through adverse situation. One I took when we were trying to get the GPS colors legalized here and I took the one commission, the honey and never been hunting, you know, lived in L.A. Democrat.
Yeah. And I said, don't judge it until you've done it. Right.
See what we do. Yeah. Don't listen to the lies.
Yeah. So he did. Honey with me.
Had a blast. Exactly. Had an absolute blast.
And his exact words were, I don't know how anyone that likes the outdoors and dogs and wildlife could not like this. A hundred percent. That's exactly.
Yeah. And he was probably anxious at first. You know what I mean? He was probably really anxious and nervous.
And you know, whether he led on or not. But then going through the process, he's like, oh my gosh. These people were normal.
You know what I mean? The dogs. And it's like, you know, and he saw we were walking, you know, because we were a wrecking honey and we were walking and the dogs come back to me. And I told him I said, well, or something.
They don't like that they're not supposed to run. And some deer can. Yeah.
And then later, and he's like, well, so much for the theory that they run down anything in their path and mutilated. Right. See? That's what we're trying to tell people.
If they just actually go see for themselves. It's hard to be said. It's awesome.
He says, have you offered to them to go out? I said, yes, they have been offered to go out. And he goes, I wonder why they won't? I said, because they don't want to see the truth. Well, I would, I mean, yes, but I would probably say that they're afraid.
You know what I mean? Like they're, they have these notions and they're afraid. Maybe they don't want to see the truth. Maybe they are politically scared of losing their election if they don't know the party line.
You know what I mean? There's a bunch of crap in the way of that. But if they could get beyond that and get to the topic of dogs, most of the time we have a pretty good discussion or whatever. I'll say argument.
But we, when you talk about dogs, you know, when you talk about cougars and it's like, oh, this cougar, but when you talk about dogs and training dogs, most everybody likes dogs. Like they really do. They like dogs with the purpose.
And so like drawing that connection is really difficult. That's what we got to figure out how to do. We got to figure out how to talk about puppies and dogs more often than, than cougar trees.
So, yeah, well, let's talk about your second bill a little bit because that one. Now, I'll, I want to definitely track it. So I'm like, let me know how that, that goes.
I'm kind of curious to see what mostly because of their motivation. Like I said, if they're going to hijack your bill, get it, make it useless and then pass it and champion it at the same time to say, hey, we're doing something. They're pretty, they're pretty desperate.
Like, yeah, that's a pretty desperate. On the lion bill. I'll keep you up to date on that.
Yeah. So the other one, the bear bill that assembly bill 1038. Was heard.
What day was it Tuesday? And. So that bill, what's, what's the, what is that bill? It would, there's actually two parts to the bill. The first part is a pursuit only.
And. It would allow the hazing of bears and out in the wild throughout the whole state. Yeah.
And what it was, we brought this up for, and this is sponsored by California Houndsmen for Conservation. And we have a co-sponsored California Dure Association signed on later this year. To it.
And it was a. Assemblyman woman Heather Hadwick is the one that carried the bill. And so. What it would do is allow houndsmen to pursue bears.
And try to, because for over a decade now they have not been able to be ran by hounds after sin. Assembly bill 1221. Past.
Yeah. In 2012. This is the last year we could run bears here in California.
Bears and bobcats. Yeah. So.
So for over a decade now they have not been able to be ran with dogs. And human bear conflicts. In this state have went up drastically.
Right. And just human or bear problems period. So, you know, it's time to do some.
And we knew that the bear management plan California Department of Fish and Wildlife bear management plan was going to be coming out soon. Yeah. Well, it would be dropping while this bill was getting ready to be heard.
And their numbers. Had skyrocketed. So the last time a bear management plan had been done.
The numbers they had were. Like 15,000 bears. In the state.
And the numbers that they put out now were 60,000. Give or take 15,000. So you're looking at, you know, you could have upwards of 80,000 bears, 85,000 bears in the state.
So. That's a lot of bears. They're staying in the California is the next or the highest number of bears next to Alaska.
And you figure that in with one of the most populated states of people. Yeah. That common that doesn't work well.
So. And the graph that they have with the human bear conflicts in the last 10 years is just steadily. Increased.
And then in 2022. It really went up. And then it kind of came down a little bit, but still was really increased.
And. It's amazing. Yeah.
We're trying to say, well, yeah, look, it increased when you couldn't get started increasing when the dogs were taken out of the equation. Yeah. That's kind of a no brainer.
Right. We wanted to get our dogs back out there. Because we all know the one they're out there running these bears.
And it's just like the versus conditioning. It's a. Positive or bad. They're saying, well, you guys are going to be out there.
You're going to be harassing. Well, yeah, that's what we want to do. Yeah.
Adverse. We want to let them know that when they get treated by these dogs, next thing you know, comes humans. Yeah.
So then when they try to come into towns and hear people. You know, and they hear dogs barking. They need to retreat.
So not as many are going to, you're not going to stop them all. But a lot of them are going to stay out where they need to be. Yeah.
So, and we want to keep. Bears from getting killed unnecessarily because here in California, when they get killed on a depredation, no part of the American media is they get discarded like a piece of trash. Turn on the dump.
And, you know, and I guess apparently to the. Antires, that's okay. But to us, it's not.
We don't like that. So what process did it get through and. You know, what's that? It didn't make it through the committee.
It did not make it through the committee. It was. We got six.
We needed seven yeses. There's 13 members. We needed seven yeses.
We got six yeses. There was four no votes. And then the rest did not vote.
So is this the same. Is this the same committee as the violin bill went through or different? It is not because this is on the assembly side. So it's assembly water parks and wildlife.
And so. And what was the bill and what committee was it in? What's that? Well, it was a cougar bill and safety. It was in Senate.
Oh, is it like the house of representatives versus the Senate? You're saying that. Yeah. Okay.
So this is the assembly side. So. We got six yes votes.
Four no votes. The rest didn't. Did not vote.
And. So. Anybody anywhere anywhere else but politics.
That would have been a pass. Yeah. That would have been a win.
But in politics, that's not a win. So I got a question. You may not know the answer for this, but why didn't they run the cougar bill on the assembly side.
You know, I do not know because. Well, the senator. It was a senator that was from El Dorado county around the bill.
She's one that did the bill. She's a senator. She's on the Senate side.
So I'm guessing that's why it was on the Senate side. So. In a bill that we've run before, we would run it on the Senate and the house side.
So you'd have two bills. That I mean, a lot of times what they do, and I don't know if you can do this in California or not, but they'll have two bills that are like sister bills or whatever they call them. Yeah.
So it's a sister bill. So you run it on the house side and then you run it on the Senate side and you get it through. And so both sides can kind of hash on it and work on it with the committee.
And their respective committees. And then if it's going to move out of that side, then they kind of get together and go, Hey, which, which vehicle do we want to drive? Which bill do we want to push? Right? And so. Why do you think they didn't do that? Well, here, how they work.
So like this bill, if it finally eventually goes through the assembly, it'll go all the way through all the assemblies. Because next it would go to appropriations. And then it goes on from there.
So it goes through all the committees and then assembly. If it passes through all the committees in the assembly, then it goes to the Senate side. Correct.
And it has to be heard through all the Senate committees. If we get passed through there, it comes back to the assembly side. Yeah.
So that's my question is, is you can run a bill on the Senate and you can run a bill on the assembly side. I assume in California, at least in Washington. And so you had your Cougarville ran on the Senate side.
And like, and I'm from the outside, Laurie. So like, whatever, but I would be like, why are these two people? Why is that Senator not talking to that legislator and going, Hey, I can, I can duplicate your bill on the assembly side and have that Senate bill duplicate. You know, I mean, like, so you kind of get traction on both sides, where it's like, okay, we can see what the assembly side.
We can do work on the assembly side. And then you do work on the Senate side. And it broadens the discussion.
It broadens the eyeballs too. So I don't know, like, yeah, I'm not sure. Yeah.
You should look at that, especially if you're getting that, that bear bit, that, you know, pursuit bear hazing bill is getting tracked and he had to be lobbyists. I mean, there's a second half of our bear bill would allow the commission if they choose to do so to allow the take of bears with hounds. So they would bring back the take of our use of hounds for a take season to manage the population.
Because the population is getting so out of control of the state. So do you as an outsider, again, do you think where was the pushback from the members that voted no, was it on that part or was it on the whole? Yep. Yep.
If that part wouldn't have been in there, I think it would have passed. Why didn't they pull that out? Well, she offered to amend it, but they didn't accept that. And I don't know why they didn't accept it.
The chair didn't accept it. The chair is the one I have to accept the amendments. That's too bad.
I don't know. But because a couple of them had said that they were skeptical of the kill part that was in there, had that not been in there, they would vote yes. Sounds like you've got to send it.
So she offered there. You got to worry about that sin. It is what you got to worry about.
You know, they offered. And so, or she offered to take it out, but they, you know, to amend it and they didn't accept it. But when, so they, there were, all the members weren't there because they were working in other committees.
Yeah. So they had reconvened 12, 530 that evening. And so we tried to work to get a seventh vote.
And then they came back at 530 and they didn't get the seventh vote. One of the ones that was a no vote decided to take his no vote away though and not vote, which I don't get how they can do that. I mean, you're elected to go in there and vote for people.
How can you not vote? Well, it's the good. It's the right direction. So he, he took his no vote away, you know, he took his no vote away.
And then, but so then she asked for it to be reconsidered, which is kind of makes it a two year bill. The person who took the no vote away asked for it to be reconsidered. No.
No. Assimilement. The one.
The sponsor. Yeah. Assimilement.
Okay. And so they voted unanimously to give it reconsideration. So what that will do is in, it'll come back up and the fall will be able to start lobbying it again.
And then it will be heard again in January. Yeah. Yeah.
So, so hopefully we can sway some others to vote. Yes. And you guys are totally on board pulling the harvest portion out.
Yeah. I don't know about like the hunters that were for this bill, you know, if they are on board. That's the problem.
It's like, we always get labeled as the killers. I know. I do.
We're the ones who don't care about shooting. You know what I mean? Exactly. Dude, I don't care.
Like we're here for the dogs. We're here, you know, for the training and all that. Like harvesting.
The main thing that we have to worry about right now, you already have a bear season in the state. So you're already getting to kill bears. Yeah.
But we've got to worry about public safety right now. So if we can go out and there and I am getting sick of bears getting killed unnecessarily and just discarded. I mean, to me, that's disrespectful to the bears.
So if we can go out there and we can pursue these animals and we can keep humans safe and bears from getting killed unnecessarily, then we're doing our job. Yeah. And that's what we as hounds men want to do.
Yeah, I agree. So the kill part. I mean, there's, there's already a bear season.
You're already getting killed bears. So, you know, it's not our fault. They're not filling their quota.
Um, yes, they do need to manage these bears in the department. When we talked about this, because Bill and I had been working on this, you know, with CXC, we spoke with the board members and. About putting the part in with the commission.
And the take part. And. It's a, you know, it's a great idea.
And they should be the ones in charge of managing wildlife. Yeah. Yeah.
It's was their job over a hundred years ago. That's why they were formed. And that's his hands.
It should be not politicians. Yeah. That's who should be managing our wildlife.
And if the department in the commission cannot manage our wildlife, then why do we need them? Yeah, they'll be in our fire. We pan their salaries. Yeah.
Yeah. But. So that's where it's at.
You got to be reconsidered, which is good. It will be reconsidered. So we will be.
Working the heck out of it. And like I said, we'll be having a hound at the capital. I'd be really curious to see what those, those assemblymen.
Are on with the cougar. Hazing bill. You know, I mean, like I, I'd be curious because if that's got that whole process.
Oh, we got to be asking that question to those people too. You know what I mean? Like, Hey, if. If, if, and I would not recommend putting the bears and cougars together on the same bill, like keep it separate.
You know what I mean? Like don't do that. But no, it's got to be kept separate. But it is.
Interesting to me to go. What does the assembly side think of that cougar bill too? You know what I mean? Because either bill's got to go through both. So I got two questions.
One is what is the assembly side. Look at on that cougar bill. And two, what's the Senate side going to do on your bear bill? Those are the two questions that I have.
It's like. If you guys are getting traction, I'd. We got to start working.
Both sides. Like the candle on both ends. You know what I'm going to try to see where the problems are.
And it gives you, it makes it a little bit more work. You know, it's a little more busy because. Because if we get through the assembly, we will be going to.
So. Yeah. The.
Committee that shot down the line. Well, the first one we will be in. And with the bear bill.
The one thing that I can tell you out of experience when you got the candle lit on both ends. Is when you take a day to go to the Capitol to work a bill. You at least have a chance of getting more meetings, right? Because it's always like, oh, you get this one meeting for 15 minutes or whatever it is.
And you're trying to figure out what to do with your date. You drive all the way down there to, you know what I mean? But when you have two going or even four bills going to assembly to on the Senate. Then.
Then you can meet with a couple of people on the assembly side and a couple of people on the Senate side and kind of make a day out of it. Versus going for just one. One person.
So. Yeah, I was making a day out of it. It's not fun.
That part of the politics is not my home away from home. How long would drive for you? Is it to the Capitol? About an hour. Yeah.
Well, what depends on traffic sometimes longer. Right. But.
Yeah, because Sacramento traffic stinks. Yeah. Yeah.
It's horrible. But yeah, I mean, it depends on what what time our first meetings are, you know, and if they're little later, like 10 o'clock, I mean, traffic's not as bad, but if they're first thing in the morning. Well, I know we appreciate you, Laurie.
Like that is a job that I'm not a lot of people. Like nobody wants the job. Of running.
It's horrible. But yeah. So Bill keeps me in line.
Bill gains. I don't think I could do it without him. Yeah.
Too slow. Look, there's cracking a whip. Hey, let's go.
Yeah. It keeps me in line. Keeps me.
Yeah. He's good. So what does this change subjects? What, what got you started in hounds? Like completely different.
What? How long have you been doing this? And what? When did you stop? Seems like a hundred years, but. Yeah. Well, my dad had hounds.
Right. Years ago, he lived in Porterville. He grew up in Porterville and he had hounds.
And then he got out of hounds, but my sister had hounds. She lived in. You'll call Valley out of Exeter.
Right. And then I got my first hound puppy from her when I was. And I believe.
Oh, yeah. You've been after. Yeah.
Long time ago. Anyway, I hunted, I hunted with her. And then my dad got hounds again also.
And then I've just, I've had hounds ever since. And then Keith and I have known each other since we're probably. Seven.
Yeah. And he used to hunt with people with hounds. We've come gone to the water.
This isn't filled trials and we've known each other and we ended up together. Yeah. We'll be married 40 years and.
Uh, this month, the 11th of May. Congratulations. What are you going to do for your 40th? What's he going to do? What's he going to do? Probably probably go hunting.
It's been a day in the woods. There you go. But Mother's Day too.
So I get to pick. It's your pick. Yeah.
No. And so yeah, now I've had. My own hound since.
Yeah, I was a little kid. So just. Been doing it ever since.
And then we. Well, like I said, my sister started the line that we have now over 40 years ago. So.
And we've kept it going. Yeah. What's in that line now? Oh, there's a little.
We have a little bit of Walker red kick. It's just a little bit of black and tan in there. I call it our skittle pack.
Skittles. Skittles. Yeah.
Looks like a pack of skittles or M&Ms. Whatever you want. Yeah.
I have a little bit of everything in them. But whatever works. Yeah.
Yeah. I find that's pretty much. There's a lot of people they aren't.
Sold on the. I don't see sold on the breeds. There's definitely some people who are like the breeds and the papers and all that.
But a lot of times in the West, you just get. There's no papers. I don't.
Most of my dogs. Don't have. Papers.
I got one. It's got papers, but that's it. Yeah.
We've only had one paper dog ever. All the years. It was a good one.
It was a paper registered plot. It was a nice one. A bear path.
Right. Yeah. Now these ones are just a little bit of this.
A little bit of that. Yeah. When did you.
Get roped into the presidency? I've been president for. Since 2013. So right after.
Yeah. Who was before that? Josh bonus. Okay.
Was president. When we, during 2012, when we lost it, he was president. Yeah.
It was a lot of work. I got ripped into it afterwards and. Yeah.
Now you're holding a candle. Are you looking for somebody to pass it off? I think I'm the longest running president ever. Yeah.
Nobody's going to let you go. I am ready to retire. Yeah.
A lot of people don't realize. Like USDA too. It's like sometimes people need to step up and help out the board.
You know, I don't know how your board is or not. But it's like we got to get some. Give some breaks sometimes on the top.
It's like man, it gets rough being a president and doing that much work. You know, going to the Capitol and stuff like that. Yeah.
I already said if I get this bill passed on. It's time for somebody to step up to the plate. You got your eyes on anybody yet.
Don't say their name, but. No. No.
Well, you start growing them now, or you could get that. Yeah. Well, yeah, I told.
Yeah, I had the talk. I tapped the talk every year that we're not getting any younger and. Young people need to step up because.
Well. Peggy, the treasurer, she's in her 70s and then Dan. Traditionally, our treasurer of RSPF account.
He's in his 70s and. I mean, he does all of our paperwork and taxes and. Yeah.
I mean, you and. People don't even know what he does. All of our permits for stuff.
Yeah. It's just like. I'm like, you know what? When we're done when we're gone.
What are you guys going to do? Yeah. Yeah. Somebody needs to start learning the stuff.
Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.
Yeah, step up and. Keep the ball rolling because the tides are changing. Like, like the prep, you know.
The fact that you're getting these bills and getting these discussions and stuff like that. And I do get it because. Somebody that has a working job works could not do what I do.
I do get that. Yeah. You know, 15 years ago, 20 years ago, the CHC president.
Didn't have to do nothing. Yeah. Show up to meetings.
But now somebody with work, you know, working class persons, they couldn't do. Yeah. They can't take off enough time to go to the Capitol.
Well, yeah. I mean, for the last month, I've been at the Capitol probably. At least two days a week, if not three to four.
Yeah. You know, so nobody could do that. Or the job.
They didn't have losing their job. Yeah. Yeah.
No, that's true. This town game is just tough to get. You almost got to be like self-employed.
A lot of times you see. To have the freedom to do it the way you need to do it. You have to say that you can't have a job, but it definitely.
The guys that are fully dedicated and putting as much effort and time into it as they want. They have a lot of freedom that the job doesn't allow for nine to five. I know my hounds think I hate them.
Because they're used to hunting like that. Yeah. Yeah.
They think I just absolutely don't like them anymore. Yeah. Oh.
Oh. Well, hopefully you'll be able to get them out. And your hounds can realize that you still like them.
They'll breathe for a little bit now. Well, now I'm working on our banquet. When is that? I've done for that.
That's the 10th of May. Yeah. The first one's the 10th of May and the next one will be in September.
And so get it. I need to try to make it down to one of your guys's banks. I won't be able to make it May for sure.
Yeah. Oh, you know, when the one in September is it's a little closer for you anyway. Perfect.
Oh, it's in your city. Yeah. Yeah.
That 10th where I'm pretty much slammed every weekend trying to do something. Yeah. Until June.
The kids. The kids. I was like, man, we can start getting filled up pretty quick.
That's one of my things on my agenda today is get with Jess. So. Oh, yeah.
Yeah. She's mentioned you had a call or something. Yeah.
Get all your stuff ready for you. That will be a problem. Well, Lori, I'll let you go.
It's only been an hour on the podcast, but we spent an hour trying to get going before the podcast. So we've got two hours into this. I need to do some work today.
Speaking of speaking a job. They're going to fire me if I don't go to do some real work. So it was good chatting with you.
Let's get on the podcast again. And I really want to keep me. I'm.
I'm curious on some of those, the technicalities of those bills and. Yeah, I'll have to get, we'll have to get Bill on here with me. Yeah.
Because he knows all about the political stuff. Yeah. And I just go help.
Help him with the help. I mean, I'm there to the person. Yeah.
I'm more curious about the overall pressure. You know what I mean? Like the overall looking of the moving pieces of going. Okay.
Are. Are the pieces in the right position. That we can move the needle.
You know what I mean? Like, like it feels like things are. And I know it feel. I mean, things are changing on that political landscape where.
If they're doing things like, like I said, if they're doing things where they're gutting a bill. Removing all the effective pieces out of it. And then they're going to champion that bill.
Yeah, I know. Like that. There's some strong motivation that they're scared.
In my opinion, that they're really nervous. That if they don't do something. They know the writings on the wall that they're losing the argument.
You know what I mean? Like whatever it is, I think if they're getting that desperate. They're they're in a position where they're losing the argument and they they know they're losing the argument. Like they don't do that because.
They got a stronghold. You know, they just kill the bill. You know, so they're.
They're really. Positioning themselves that they're trying to. Play games and I'm like, okay, maybe.
Maybe now's the time to start putting a little more pressure, a little more pressure, a little more. Discussion because we have the right talking points. We have the.
The proof. You know, I mean, we have the facts. All the things are lined up in our favor that we've known about forever, but.
For the longest time, they've had the talking points. They've had the. The old crew and all humane and all these different.
Words that they used. That were emotional words. And.
I mean, even down to the fact of follow the science, you know what I mean? Like, okay. If they follow the science, that's a, that's a loaded statement. You know what I mean? Like they get uncomfortable with that because they use that for that damn cool thing.
You know what I mean? Like, I'll follow this. Yeah. And it's like, oh, no, now we can be like, I'll follow the science, right? Well, yes, but not in this.
You know what I mean? They want to use those. And so it's just. It's just funny how much they're there.
They're politically. They're politically spinning. Even Gavin Newsom.
You know, I mean, you see him on podcast. You see him getting hammered because he's kind of coming towards the center. And in doing podcasts with conservatives.
And. I mean, it's just a, it's just a unique time right now in the, in the political landscape. It's like, there's so many moving pieces that I'm like, man, I don't know what's happening.
I don't know what's going to happen, but. Things are, things might be in the right time for us to make a move. Yeah.
I know that with that bear bill, I was like, you know. After the line when I was. Worried.
And when they started voting, well, we were talking to him on Monday Friday and Monday. We really lobbied him. And we went with the bear biologist on Monday.
And he was great. Kyle Garrett. He worked in the Tahoe basin for almost two years.
And so he's seen firsthand what bears are like in Tahoe. Yeah. And he worked with the bear elite.
So he knows them first and. And anyway. So, you know, he's talking lobbying with us.
And he had some great arguments. And the people actually listened. You could tell they actually listened and they had they had some great questions.
Yeah. And when they started voting, all these yeses started popping up. I'm like, holy crap.
Yeah. I mean. Well, I think now is the time.
To. To reach to. To get to the Democrats.
You know what I mean? And try to sit down and talk with them. And I always say like we always just throw sticks and stones and call them each other's names. Well, well, we're gonna have to.
One of them even said she goes. Show the Democrats. She says, I don't live in the mountains.
So I don't have this problem. I live in the desert, but I do. You know, we have coyotes and this and that.
Great. We go. Yeah.
Which goes, but I do realize there is a problem. And I've been briefed on this. And I know there's a problem.
Right. The stuff that you guys have presented to us. And, you know, therefore, I'm going to give a yes vote.
And I was just like shocked. Yeah. But they actually listened.
And they actually listened to this. Looked at the stuff we gave them. You know, the studies that we got and everything we talked about.
Yeah. You know, they actually. Which does not happen very often here in the state.
No. No. And hopefully we can reward that by encouraging and being grateful and thankful and all that good stuff.
You know, people are writing them letters to be like, hey, thanks. And in that way, the next time we make it a little easier for them to see. Yeah.
You want to be like, oh, yeah, we got. Yes. We got encouraged.
We got, we got, we got, we didn't get a bunch of pushback, but we had a lot of, a lot of people say, thank you. And, and, and so the next time they can go. It wasn't.
Well, we can do, you know, we can introduce them to our dogs and hopefully get some of them in the field. And. No.
I'm curious. You got this point to work off of. You know what I mean? Exactly.
And for the chair to say she would go out with the dogs. Yeah. That's a plus.
No. She was a hard now. And she was wanting the rest of them.
To follow her because she was the leader. And so she's a no. She wasn't.
She was a hard no, but she voted to reconsider it. Yeah. And after talking with Heather Hadwood, she, and she agreed to go out in the field with the dogs.
Yeah. So she's willing to reconsider. That's good.
And I'm like, holy cat. I mean, I was just like. Yeah.
I'd be curious what the motivation of the person that went from a no to a no vote. You know, like I'd be curious. Yeah.
You know, you know, if you get to sit down with that person and go, Hey, why didn't you know what? What? Yeah. Do you have any questions? Will you come out and see the dog for you? I mean, will you, will you sit down and talk with this bear biologist? Or will you do whatever? You know, I mean, like if we can get those, those are a little weak. I will say weaknesses because whatever, but we will be working a hack out of those ones.
Exactly. It's a starting point to be like, okay, there's, there's some work that we can do. And, and man, if you can get them out in the field and around a dog, a lot happens.
So I'm really hopeful for that. I'm really hopeful for that, man. Yeah.
Yeah. All right. Let's wrap this up.
You got anything else you want to get out? No. No. Thanks for having me.
Yeah. Yeah. I think we tried to do them before you were, you don't want to chase them one time in a field trial with barking dogs all over.
Didn't work out. And we should do this once every, every couple months or so. So I need to, now that Jason's gone, I got to, I got to start working.
I got to do more podcasting. I got to, I got to get off my ass and do something. So, so I appreciate you.
I had a text going with you. I'm like, Hey, you're somebody who's got something cool to talk about for a minute. Hop on.
What's going on down there? So. All right, buddy. All right.
Don't worry. Have a good one. Bye.